Good drumming versus great drumming

[McKenzie]

Great posts guys and I do not have the foggiest idea how to define greatness in a box. Like Me2 said, Great at what? Technical ability, diversity, feel, passion, ability to teach etc. There are so many aspects to being a musician.
Like most have said to a degree, it is in the ears of the one listening. Obviously with areas like having refined technique, whacked out chops, feel, time you can hear those things clearly to a point but other aspects are more inert qualities that are hard to define. Even the areas like taste and dynamics many can really disagree. And some have nothing to do with playing outright, as in attitude towards others, passion, ability to communicate and teach, etc.

Even on this post alone you see guys really digging certain guys for their own unique reasons. I personally love listening to Virgil, Vinnie, Tony W. and Jeff Watts to name a few.
Why, they have their OWN sound, yes very influenced by many but got their own thing going.
They play with passion and energy and each have excellent technique and with a very unique/creative bent going on. They throw out things at you that make you think and stretch yourself( a little bit of insanity at times). They did not and do not rest on their laurels they pushed and push themselves to do new things not done before. Each in their own setting are very musical and dynamic.

They are not afraid to try things, which you hear alot of in Tony Williams. I have listened to his Lifetime work over and over and the guy was like hey I am going to try this new technique or throw out this crazy lick here, he was not afraid to create on the spot. If anyone ever read the M.D.
tribute to Tony years ago where they had MANY well known guys reflect on Tony MOST guys said in the article it was not his technique or feel or time that effected them the most but his creativity his courage to do and try new things and some of these things he did not pull off with perfection but even then it still enhanced the music. Heck you can hear him when he starts going off and at times he does not quite pull off what he was going for BUT it still worked for the section and the overall tune. Being musical I guess is not defined by total precision and always being consistent. Anyways too much to talk about and not enough time.
Good stuff guys!

Regards Digital

[Geoff_G]

MHO: musical & technical prowess for communication [img]graemlins/music.gif[/img] , innovativeness [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img] , hipness [img]cool.gif[/img] & passion [img]graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (can i say BALLS?).

[five eight]

I apologize in advance but dammit, guys, beats said the two magic words: Tony Williams. I don't mean to get offtrack here but lately I've been listening to the Believe It CD over and over. Tony recorded many turning point albums that were defining moments in jazz and fusion before he reached the age of 30. Four & More / Miles Davis (’64); Out To Lunch / Eric Dolphy (’64); Empyrean Isles / Herbie Hancock (’64); Tony’s second solo effort Spring (’65); Filles de Kilimanjaro / Miles Davis (’68); Emergency / Tony Williams Lifetime (’69); and Believe It / The New TW Lifetime (’75).

Believe It is an important Tony Williams record for many reasons. Allan Holdsworth on guitar. Tony’s FIRST recorded outing WITHOUT his bebop four piece. Now he’s beating the shit out of the big yellow Gretsch weapons of mass destruction. Out of retirement after the collapse of the original TW Lifetime with the new Lifetime. Gone are the super-charged maelstroms of percussive fury barely contained on Emergency and Turn It Over. After his minimal performance on In A Silent Way, the last Miles album he recorded, that was not surprising. Tony’s wasn’t dropping bombs any more on Believe It, he was playing rock and roll. The figures he executed to set up the changes were unexpected but musical. He soloed in counterpoint behind the band on almost every tune. And he had it goin’ on.

Pedigree from Hell too: 16 years old, gigging and recording with Jackie McLean; 17 years old, ascending the drum throne of Miles’ second classic quartet; 22 years old, forming the very first jazzrock fusion band ever; 25 years old, retired; 28 years old, back in the fusion saddle with Holdsworth and the new Lifetime. The band recorded a bizarre second record, Million Dollar Legs, weak tea compared to Believe It.

Holdsworth must have thought so too because he split to play with UK. Allan must be very spoiled in the drummer department. Bruford, Novak, Husband, Colaiuta, Griffin, Wackerman, Covington, plus Williams and those are just cats he’s recorded with. And who knows how many others?

After the departure of Holdsworth from the fold Tony then recorded the brilliant The Joy of Flying with McLaughlin, Ronnie Montrose and Cecil Taylor. After that it was off with VSOP in 1976, and Tony played jazz almost exclusively for the rest of his lifetime. He recorded rock (and punk!) music with bands but everybody knows record company suits aren’t about to green light ANYthing they can’t pigeonhole so only a fortunate few have heard those recordings. Just before he died Tony recorded two projects with Arcana, playing fusion again AND double bass. His double bass chops were limited but he was attempting something new. He sailed his drums into as much uncharted water as Magellan did his ship.

Tony was great as great gets and is an example for us all. Amen.

[Burzmali]

For me a great drummer is one who apart from all the usual things (technique, groove, swing etc etc), has a kind of inner fire and a willingness to take chances, to go where no one has gone before and do it with such enthusiasm that you just have say: Yes go...

All of the above qualities I invariably find in all of my favourites: Tony, Elvin, Vinnie, Morgan ?gren, Gary Husband, Narada Michael Walden, Christian Vander, to name but a few...

That's why Weckl's drumming always turns me off, even with the new and improved Dave, it always sounds idiom correct and all that, but not very exciting to me, like he's taking never taking any chances, .... it just sounds too "safe", over-rehearsed and dull to me...

And for the one who said that Gary Novak wasn't all that, take a listen to "16 men of Tain" by Allan Holdsworth and be prepared to be blown away...

[beat Hit]

Wow!! Solid thinking in here!! Some of you guys are truly gifted in expressing intellectual concepts. I am starting to wonder if I should
really continue posting alongside some of you !! LOL!! I mean that... There are some folks in here who are always digging deep and their comments keep on enriching me with sound drumming/music knowledge. Some of you would be great in contributing to Modern Drummer on the side... [img]wink.gif[/img]

So what's the topic again? Oh yeah... Good versus great...

I guess my thoughts are real similar to what's been written so far. First of all I must say that I more and more want to avoid the phrase "That's not a good tune" or "he's not a good drummer" (Unless it's real obvious). I prefer to replace it with "I don't like" this or that.

Would it be fair to say that the term "great" is such a wide term that it deserves to be subdivided in categories? I mean, great in what? That's the main reason why I disagree with attributing the title to someone as being "Best drummer in the world". There are lots of great drummers that are uniquely great in their own ways, in a specific dimension of drumming that THEY chose to excel in. Yes, some are GREAT in many various dimensions.

So what did I mean by "categories"? Well the list is too long IMO but here's one example:

- Feel, but here again, feel in what musical context? For example, in my book I consedere Alex Acuna as having one of the greatest feel playing Latin (I prefer his than Horacio's). I take another one with GREAT feel, Omar Hakim. His feel is as great as Alex's but in other styles. Hope I am making sense...

Then again like some of you wrote, it's in the ear of the listener. What touches us, what moves us. Music is the bottom line, unless you want to see a "Cirque Du Soleil" type performance, and that's fine too, nothing wrong with that. So for me, the great drummers are the ones who happen to excel in a specific dimension and strive to serve the music first. This requires self-control and there are some great drummers that just can't shut-up, killing the music... isn't that great!! LOL!! [img]wink.gif[/img]

Peace,

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 01, 2003 03:38 AM: Message edited by: beat Hit ]</font>

[chris perra]

to me a great drummer is someone who serves the music first and formost.

i think this is acheived in different ways depending on the situation.

for example i don't think to many peple would think that sticking virgil with the stones would produce the the same effect that charlie watts would. and visa versa with planet x.

both are considered 2 of the greatest drummers "ever" at what they do,but they are so not the same thing at all. if they are sylisticly so diabolicly apposed to each other on almost every level, why would they both be considered that great?

i think it's because they are both in bands that succesfully put the listener in a certain state of mind.


they do this by playing what the listener wants to hear. be it feel, licks, creativity, whatever....

they both have the ability to bring to the table a peice of the puzzle to create great music in their respective genres.

chris perra

[five eight]

The hair stands up on my arms listening to Purdie and Gadd in the deepest of pockets. Yet hearing Weckl or Colaiuta percussive firestorms can move me so much more.

Do Great Drummers have to have chops? Definitely I think yes.

In the Purdie/Gadd sense, no. Gadd's just being complacent, he has chops. He can groove me into somnolence and hasn't been exciting (like Nite Sprite) in 20 years. The groove players can be great but I think the chops drummers will always be greater.

Jeff also abided by the groove but he lit 'em up too.

[Manos]

While I agree that the greats must have incredible chops, I don't think it's necessary for them to use them all the time. If someone doesn't feel a need for a "flashy" feel, then he shouldn't play it. A drummer's style dictates what he actually plays in a musical situation, and I definitely think there are times when using chops can spoil the music. At the same time, though, I can think of instances where a bit of UMPH could have been inserted into songs to help the listener to connect with the music.

In my opinion, what separates the good from the great is the little things. Good players play... well. They keep good time, make the music interesting/enjoyable, bring out the groove, and put the spotlight on whomever its meant to be on. The great players, though, groove better - they feel things in a different way than most. They also have chops that are even better (exponentially) than most and make the most of them. As said before, though, that isn't a "must", but usually the great players know how to use their incredible chops and not take the focus away from the music.

It's too early for me, and my mind is starting to wander. Great posts, great thread, and I love this board.